Interview avec Tjitske Broersma, 20.1.2019

Let us start at the beginning, which is always a good place to start. Your dance education: can you tell us something about that?

Why did I start dancing? Because I had a very bad posture, and my mother said: 'Okay, you go or to ballet or to Mensendieck.' It's a kind of work on the body that you get more straight, etc. In Mensendieck [System] I found out I had to do it in my panties and my under shirt. And I thought: 'No, I don't want it. I go for ballet.' But I didn't know what ballet was, okay, we'll find out. Then, when I started dancing ballet, I was wonderful, and I kept doing it. During the summer vacations, I worked so that I can pay all my classes. Then, it was clear for the lady [ballet teacher]: 'You go to the academy, you go to have a good education, from now on you pay for one class and the rest is free. You come whenever you want.' So, that was wonderful. Then, one day we had a performance in Leiden in Holland, and she said to the press: 'You have to write about her.' Okay. Then after that, she went to my mother, and she tried to convince my mother that I should go to dance education. My mother didn't want it. Yes, she wanted that, but first I had to finish my high school. Okay. Then I was in the academy, and it was wonderful. Because in my amateur time, I did some modern dancing, because this lady – she also came from the Rotterdam Dance Academy, which is more modern oriented. So, I had kind of jazzy things, modern things, so, already that kind of school was familiar for me.

What kind of modern training was, at the time, in the Academy?

In my time, it was Ineke Sluiter for American based Martha Graham technique, and there was Dorle Hoffman, who came from the Wigman Schule, so she brought in the Wigman style. That was was very organic and beautiful, round things. So, when I came to Pina, I kind of knew it already. Yeah. So it's not strange to me.

At some point, Pina Bausch and Jean Cébron came and performed. Do you remember that?

YEAH! That was in the theater in Rotterdam. That was an eye opener, because I didn't know who they were. You sit there and you see a different world. It was a kind of movement I did not know. I've never seen before. Never seen before done by another company or other people. It was really eye opener and I thought: 'This is what I want to do!' Because I was in my last year of the academy and I really didn't know what to do. Okay. National Ballet? No, classic. I'm not a classical type. Nederlans Dans Theater? I'm not good enough. Uh, what else was there? Then, there was this lady who gave the American Martha Graham technique on the Academy, who started a new company. So, I thought that's maybe a chance. I didn't know yet, and there were more little groups. Bianca van Dillen was there. But when I saw Pina Bausch and Jean Cébron, I thought, this is it. So, I asked my teacher Ineke Sluiter: 'Where can I find this?' She knew Pina Bausch from America. So, Ineke knew where Pina Bausch was. It's in the Folkwangschule. And I said: 'Okay, I can study there.' 'Yeah, you could.' So, I stayed longer there to study. Not in the dance program, but as a pupil, as a student. We went there with more girls from the class, and we took classes all day. It was wonderful. There was also a classical class, and from Hans Züllig, and I think also from Jean Cébron, I'm not so sure about that. And Pina Bausch thought I was auditioning for the company, but I thought, I'm auditioning for the school. And she was sitting there with Züllig, and Ineke Sluiter was sitting there, there too. Well, I was not nervous at all. I was just enjoying what I was doing. And there were many things I didn't understand. So, when we were standing at the side, because when you do two groups in the class, you stand on the sides. You know all about it, of course. And then I asked Marlis Alt, what is this movement like? Does it go like this or this or, you know, so Marlis showed me all the time. I was so eager and Pina saw that, she thought I want to have her in the company. I didn't know that. So, I went back home and Ineke said: 'You don't have to audition for my company. You're in, and – for the final exams I made a modern solo – that will be on the repertory.' So, she kind of lured me in. I thought: 'Yeah, that's also nice to be in a new company. She promised us that we could be creative also. So, I can do more, maybe. I decided for that, and I had a contract for two years. Then, Pina Bausch came. For the premiere, there was Lucas Hoving, with the piece 'Icarus', Pina Bausch with In Wind der Zeit. Ineke Sluiter, think it was 'Water Music' from Haendel. And, I think there was another piece of Ineke: 'Ariadne'? But, I'm not so sure. I asked colleagues and they didn't remember either. Or was it 'Evolution(?)' from the Bianca van Dillen. Bianca van Dillen was a young choreographer in Holland and went to America, came back and she created a company.

There was somebody else that eventually came to the company as well: Ed Kortlandt. Was he also in the same year as you were?

He was also with this company of Ineke Sluiter in Rotterdam. We had a contract for two years, and after that, it was so clear for me: 'Now I go to Pina'. Ed Kortlandt stayed another year, so he stayed for three years with Ineke Sluiter, and then he went to the Martha Graham Company. Because he was discovered, so to speak, for by Mary Hinkson. Because we did the Sommerakademie in Köln [Summer Academy in Cologne], and there he we had classes from Hinkson.

So, how can you imagine that a summer festival where you go, you have the student quarters, you take 3 or 4 classes a day? Was it in that way?

Yes. Very intense. It's true what you say. I took always four classes, because I wanted to get the most out of it. I took classical ballet from Jules Yoac(... ?). And Mary Hinkson, also Lynn Simonsson for the jazz. And then at the end, it was Hans van Manen, who studied duet, that I did with Ed Kortlandt. I remember. Another year there was somebody else, but it was more like workshop, kind of workshop. So they studied pieces from their own ballets, like I was from Hans van Manen, and so we could learn that. So, yeah! Then you eat and you went to bed. And next day again: Pliè. Yeah!

When I came, there were three things: Nachnull, Im Wind der Zeit and I think there was also something of Jean Cébron. I remember that we worked so much together, Pina and I. All the time, and she wanted me to learn all those pieces at the same time. So one day, we were working and she started to laugh. She started to laugh: 'What are you doing?' 'Well, I don't know. What did I do?' I was moving, and I started with a piece of Pina, then I went to Jean Cébron, then I went to Lucas Hoving, then I go back to Jean. So, I was taking pieces from all those ballets and mixing like this, because I couldn't remember anymore the right order. So, I was mixing up the pieces. Pina saw that and she was flabbergasted. 'What are you doing?' It was so funny. So we laughed. 'Okay, one by one' she said.

Nachnull. Do you remember the process? Because Nachnull has a very specific costume and movements that is very special.

I learned of part of Susanne Linke, because Susanne was gone then.

So, which piece did you first started creating?

I think it's Wiegenlied. I think. Because after Aktionen für Tänzer and the Tannhäuser Bacchanal. Wiegenlied Oh, [difficult]! The men, they had big boots like soldiers, you know (stomping), we girls had bare feet, and we were so vulnerable. We didn't like that. No. Not so much. I can't remember the movement so much. It's so funny. But I didn't like being this vunerable.

As far as composition, we have these pictures to look at, and Im Wind der Zeit, her first piece she took there [Rotterdam] has a very plastic composition.

Yeah. Yeah. Nachnull had that too, plastic composition. Yeah. I don't think Wiegenlied had that. I don't think so. No.

So slowly, we're getting to Wuppertal with Tannhäuser Bacchanal Do you remember how this collaboration with Arno Wüstenhöffer started? You remember seeing him coming to Essen-Werden? Tell me about that.

Yeah. I think that Pina Bausch was not so sure if she wanted to come here and work. We talked about it and also with Rolf Borzik and she said: 'Yeah, it's such a big organization and you have to do this and that. You have more things to think about, instead of doing my own creation.' And we had to do operettas. So, she wasn't so sure about it. But he [Arno Wüstenhoffer] talked very into her, he really wanted her. Because he asked these two choreographers to make a piece, and that was Aktionen für Tänzer, and he liked it very much. And then he asked her again to make the Tannhäuser Bacchanal. Then, it was really clear for him, she has to be the 'Ballettmeisterin' [Dance director] here. Tannhäuser Bacchanal I remember, the stage was like hills. And it was kind of kind of stuff like this.

But the mean thing was that it had these thick thing, like lines, high like this (shows). So, it was painful if you slide. Well, you know, in Pina's stuff there was lots of slides also. So, we were stuck. Then we started to take it away. Naughty, naughty people we were. Yeah, yeah. Ed Kortlandt was in there, no, he was still in Rotterdam, but I said too him: 'You know, I don't think it's erotic at all, I don't believe it.' And then he came to watch the performance and he said: 'You have no clue? It is so erotic!' 'Oh, sure?' 'Yeah.' So, it was funny, you know. You just can't always see yourself. Yeah.

That's something that I would like to talk about. Being a dancer, being within the piece, doing what you have to do, and this outside view. Because sometimes people don't realize what you know, when you're on stage. Maybe you can describe this.

Yeah, yeah. I can also remember that when I started in the company I was so nervous, always before performance. I didn't like that, I really wasn't sure I wanted to do this. If dancing is like this ,being so so so so nervous, I'm not sure. But, working with Pina, when she came to Rotterdam, was a completely different way of working. It was always like 'nochmal, bitte!' [Please repeate]. She worked very precisely. You know everything. She knew where everythig should be, the hands, the position of the head. My everything. So, it makes you sure. Okay. You know, there are some tricky moments that asks for a specific technique, but I know how to cope with it. I know how to do it. So that gives you the trust. And those moments will come, but you go through it. It's not that you think: 'Oh no. No, stop! No, no.' You know it's coming. You go through it and it's right, because you just embrace it, that it's okay to do that. You can do it. So that was a big, big, big thing for me. Then, it was clear for me, yes, I want to become a dancer, and that's what I did. So, it was with her I had the most experience that you trust what you do. I never had that with other choreographers. Or they let you go a little in this or say: 'You can decide in there.' But with Pina, no. No, you do what she wants. The detail is not a detail. A detail is as important as a big movement. When I do my fingers like this, it's not detail. No, it's as important if it's like this or like this, it has a shape, a form. Everything has a form, because that's also very important for her: the form. And she also was looking for beauty. She said that often: 'Es soll schön sein!' [It should also be beautiful] 'Ja, das siehst schön aus!' [Yes, that is beatiful] 'Ja, das ist gut!' [Yes, that is good] Aways this word 'schön' [beatiful]. So, the esthetic aspect is also very important for her. It's not only the technique, but the esthetic is important, and the quality of the movement, of course. So, that's also very precise. And you see it in one of the pieces later – I wasn't there anymore. There is a scene where the dancers come one by one on stage and they do something, and they stand there, then they repeat it. They all go away. They repeat it, and it's exactly the same. And that's what you will not see in another company with another choreographer. This, you only will see with Pina Bausch. It has to be the same, otherwise it's different. She said: 'It's different, has a different meaning then also.' So that's important.

Does knowing how to do and having this precision, gave you a feeling that frees you: you became free to be in there.

Exactly. Yeah. There is also a freedom so that you can move, otherwise you would lose the flow of the movement. This freedom gives you the flow that goes through the body and the space. So, it's free at the same time. It's not like, I have to be very precise (shows). No, it's precise, but it's flowing. It's dancing. Yeah. If it doesn't dance, forget it. Then she will work as long as it starts to dance.

The Rite of Spring it's something that has this precision, but also has the uncertainty of the ground.

Terrible. So, I had to re-learn how to do a relevé. It's not so dramatic, of course.

I actually went ahead. Because we were talking about precision and freedom, dealing with the things that happen. But I actually wanted to talk about Fritz.

Fritz. Oh, I saw on YouTube in a little piece, and I thought, what a crazy piece it was. Crazy. And all those strange figures. I. And I was a person. How do you say that you have two sexes in you?

Hermaphrodite, yeah. And Rolf Borzik wanted me to have a big penis, and the girls in the company were shocked. 'You cannot do that! That's awful! That is vulgar!' Well, he didn't make that big. (laughs) Yeah, that was a shock for them. Later on I did also the Grandmother. It was tricky to deal with that, because you are sitting and she's growing. She had this skirt, you cannot see the legs, and then from under – the stage goes down a little, it's possible here in this theater – Hans Pop comes in between your legs, and you rise, rise, rise. But that moment was tricky, because you are sitting well and far enough for the head to come, otherwise you fall backwards. But that's okay, I like that. What I like about this, is that you don't show it's a trick. That you don't show: 'Oh, no. It's coming!' No, you stay in your role and you can cope with it, and grow. That I like! Yeah.

And for Pina Bausch was her very first show in this sort of environment. Next to Agnes de Mille and Kurt Jooss.

Yeah. So it was a strange piece, actually, between these other two.

Did you perform the other two pieces? Yeah, both: Rodeo and The Green Table. That must have been a shock as well.

For the public it was a shock Fritz. Not the other pieces, I mean, Rodeo is nice. Lots of dancing. Jooss is a classic, of course. I don't know if this audience, that was here knew Kurt Jooss. That's also dancing, real dancing in this first scene – the table scene – is interesting. Very interesting. But, Fritz I can imagine that they didn't know what to do with it. The public, who knows how to look at it. What is this? What does she want? You know, I can imagine that those kind of thoughts go through their heads. And then, when the opera came –Iphigenie auf Tauris. It was beautiful, beautiful dancing and scenes. So, there were used to opera already. So, you're used to scenes and singing and then there were scenes and dancing, not that far away from what you know already as a public.

For a short time I was not in the company. Later when I came back, then I had to learn the repertoire of course. I'll Do You In… and so on.

Orpheus und Eurydike also?

The operas I did.

Then we come to the Stravinsky evening.

And the creation of the operas, of course. It's only Mahler [Adagio] I didn't do.

And Gerhard Bohner came and did one work as well.

Yeah. I didn't like that, no. Malade Imaginaire. Poor Pina. She had all these bandages. She hated that, she didn't that. I can imagine. When they were rehearsing, we were not allowed to watch. And we saw it when we were working together. And I thought: 'Oh yeah, poor you with all these stupid bandages and restrictions.' The choreography was not Interesting. No.

The last piece I was in was 'Macbeth', but then, not on the stage. During the rehearsals of 'Macbeth' I told her that I wanted to leave. Then we talked for three days. She wanted me to stay, she offered me that I could be her assistant. And no, I decided I wanted to go. After the third day, Rolf Borzik came to me and said, she wants you to go. So, I was out of the piece. It was a very mühsames [difficult] process. The space we were working was very cold, then they finally put in these heat blowers, so you have the noise. And, she had a hard time to know what to do with it, with the whole theme. There was a lot of improvisation from us. She asked a lot from us, and of course, I always liked it. That started with 'Blaubart' by the way. But, I didn't like it because for me, it had a negative atmosphere. I had to do things like finishing off people. Like when Jan Minařík was lying on the floor and the girls were seducing him, and cursing and then she said: 'Okay, Tjiske, now finish him.' (laughs) I didn't know what to do. Finish this guy? Kill the guy? So, it didn't go well then. I can be very strong. I can be very, very strong. I can finish people. But, at that moment it didn't work for me. It doesn't always work. Even if you know how to do it, as we were talking about performing, then it doesn't always work. There is a kind of feeling that is missing. Lacks.

Well, I skipped 'Todsünden' [The Seven Deadly Sins] and 'Blaubart' [Bluebeard. While Listening to a Tape Recording of Béla Bartók's Opera 'Duke Bluebeard's Castle']. Tell us about that.

Oh my favorite. I like to do that. I liked very much because in 'Bluebeard' she only asked a few people to work with her. That was the first time that we answer questions that she came with. We worked in the studio of Jan Minařík, so that we were apart. We were maybe four or five people there, small group, and I loved it. Yeah.

So what kind of questions were at that time?

Seducing Jan Minařík, and I could do that very well. It was another kind of seducing – this famous scene that I do with the tongue. And my very best friend said: 'it's even more obscene than the reality.' And I thought: 'Oh, God, now I cannot do it anymore.'

Do you remember how that scene came to be?

'Macht mal etwas mit der Puppe.'

'Do something with the doll.'

So, I seduced the doll. To seduce Jan Minařík, I seduced the doll. There was for me some the logic in it. There were some acting things we did. So a mixture of things. There was not so much dancing for us. For Marlis, yes. There was some dancing with the bed sheets, that was really dancing, but I was not in the 'sheets'.

Did that bother you at that time, that there was not so much dancing?

No. I liked it.

Because many people left.

They left, yeah. No, I liked this development. I saw it as a development because you try it. You try it out, Pina tries it out and then movement will come back. I was sure about that. I did, but you have to go through another phase to come back there again. And this was another phase for her. And, I love to cooperate, and try out for myself as well.

They were rehearsing at Jan Minařík's studio. How was that? Because it became an issue of not having enough rehearsal space?

No, it was more that she wanted to be alone, that she was sure that nobody entered the studio. Just like that. Because, of course, if you work here in the Opera, everybody can enter the studio. And she really wanted to be separately. Only a few people, and then play with things. Yeah. Jan had a school, so he offered his school. He said: 'Oh, we can work at my school.' 'Okay, great.' Yeah.

Irgendwann dann kam [die Lichtburg].

Here the studio was so small. My God! Can you imagine the operas? Can you imagine 'Sacre'? Crazy, but we did it. And then she was smoking all the time.

Renate wandert aus [Renate emigrates]

That had also a big stage. Did it influence the work down on the floor? There was a lot of group scenes.

Yeah, and the rows, sitting girls. The couches and his huge white mountain from styrofoam. Like mountains. Jo Ann Endicott standing there, right? No, this was Mari Di Lena reading the letters. There were funny things. Yeah. No. If you talk about the floor, 'Bluebeard' was a disaster too, because it had all these leaves and there came with it little pieces of branches. So, there again, you hurt your feet. I can remember that together with Jan, we both looked a the whole stage over. We collected the branches, and animals. There were animals like spiders. I remember the entrance with the girls, coming from right side back – there were there are holes in the walls so that the women climb up – we were passing and I saw that in my hole there was a big spider. I was (scared) like, oh no! Okay. So, when the moment came, and I was running and you have to run. 'Where's the spider, where's the spider?' I was looking, and there was no spider. But still, you're afraid that when you're there, they will come from the back on your feet. I hate spiders! So, there were the branches and spiders! And in 'Todsünden' [The Seven Deadly Sins], the floor is, of course, a beautiful thing. He [Rolf Borzik] made from negative [an imprint] from the street. But that was slippery, and hard. Oh, no! It was very unpleasant, very unpleasant. I was given shoes too big, so I had a really hard time just to stay on the floor. No, it was very unpleasant. Yeah. I wonder how it is for people now, with all this amount of water in the stage. I don't know.

Did you live around this area, close to the work?

Very close Heinrich-Janssen-Straße. We walked.

What about the working hours? Was that something like we'd know in the theater? Always 10 to 14, and 18 to 22, was it strict? Or more free?

Ne. Ne. From ten to two, and often to two-thirty, because she always wanted only to see this. And Hans Pop would say: 'Pina, we have to end now.' And at night 6 to 10. And in between, we always take a nap for one hour, otherwise, you cannot make it, it was too hard. That's crazy. But she wanted that way, you know, she wanted it. Why? Because she wanted to work in between. Then, she could create for herself the movement, because then she made up the movement. Nowadays the dancers make the movement. But at that time, she made all the movements. So, she had to to create it. That was a period free, long free period for her. So that was the reason why we had these working hours.

And also for 'Bluebeard'? Was she was doing the movements?

Well, what there was, not the acting things. Just the dancing. All this stuff with Marlis Alt (shows), you know? Or with the girls that she wanted us to count our hair. That she gave a sense. So it was not like, 'do something with your hair.' No. 'Count your hair.'

Is there something specific in Pina's movement, or dancing style? That when you come to it, you think – 'well, this is Pina'. That you can describe, was that something that put a fingerprint into it?

I should be able to say that. (laughs) It was very organic. And in lots of pieces of the body, or the where does the movement start? (shows) Does it start from the shoulder and then it continues. Or does it really start from here? (shows) Or start from the wrist? So where does it start in the body? That's very important. And then, of course, how does it continue in space? That's very precise. There's also things that you have to force your body to do, like in Nachnull. This arm (shows) – I can't do it anymore – the arm goes behind your head. 'Noch weiter [go further], weiter!' she asked, she was very demanding. She always wanted it to be bigger or smaller. Show a kind of generosity in the movement: big is big. And round movements were typical for her. The accent was more in the torso and arms, legs were really a second thought. That was interesting for me to see, that when the dancers were making their own stuff, you see more legs, you see more floor work coming, more jumping. With her it was far more the torso.

Was there a separation in the upper body and the arms, spacially within the room?

Yeah, isolations, but always there's an awareness of what this is doing (shows). It's not only, here is my arm. There were always relations to each other, spatial tension. When the hands were so (shows) did you feel the spatial tension? It's not like: 'I put them together.' (shows) But 'Did you feel the space?' Or when she's like this (shows). Did you feel? (pause) There is a connection. It's not like: 'I place my hand here, and that I neglect this.' Both sides are doing something. If I do this (shows) my body's also doing something: there is a spacial connection. That's also important for her: this awareness.

Awareness. That's the word I was looking for. Awareness to the point that while you're doing, you're actually aware where everything else is going. Because you had a lot of experience afterwards, and before, with different teachers. Could you identify different ways of thinking about dance like Laban/Jooss , Hans Züllig, or the American Limón and all of that. Could you place these sort of influences?

Yeah. Although she had a lot ... – What was his name? – Antony Tudor. That's one she has learned a lot from, she said. And, I don't know what. I never asked her. But that was a very important person for her.

You know, you always learn from all the styles. She has also done Martha Graham. She learned from all things. And in the Graham, well, Mary Hinkson always said: 'Feel the back. Feel the back. You know, if you open up, feel the back.' (shows) It's not like if you open up and you feel only in the front. No, it's again things against each other. 'This' is working with 'this', and this is working with this. (shows) They work together, and that makes movement fuller, more intense and more interesting also. I think that's one of the reasons that gives you trust. Because, it broadens your knowledge about how to work with the body. It's a different knowledge if you're aware of that. Malou Airaudo is also screaming in her class: 'Feel the back!' (laughs) You know? I never heard that phrase in my education. Never. Never? It's so much more one dimensional my whole education: I had also Cecchetti. Yeah, oh God! Then, I looked at the performance of the Tanztheater, and they had these beautiful arms and I try to do it in class: 'No, it's like this.' (shows) You know.

When I was teaching amateur dancers, I also worked with that: try to get more three dimensional. That was also very new for them, of course.

Tannhäuser Bacchanal and The Rite of Spring: these are both pieces where the spatial design is something that we see very, very strong in the work. In order for the dancer to be there, how was this awareness? Well, we can talk about 'Sacre' and the awareness of the other people.

Yeah. That you don't hit each other? We were standing very close sometimes. That is also a thing that you develop as a dancer: that if you look here, I can see this, and I can see that (shows). And that you develop in the years, of course. That doesn't come from one day to the other day. Otherwise, you would be looking (shows). Stupid, am I right? No. You know exactly where somebody is. I can see more: behind this thing, and more. Yeah, you can develop that. And of course, you can feel some people. So, if you're standing close you sense. Yeah. There is this tension, spatial tension between the two of you. And with some dancers, you don't have that, with some dancers you have. I had that with Marlis Alt. It felt good with her also. So then, if you have the space and a shape in the space, and I do nothing with the space now (shows) – it's just a shape in the space. But, I can also come to reaching and then so that you're lengthening this energy. You see with lots of modern dances that the energy stops here. (shows) And that's also typical for Pina Bausch: the energy goes on. It's not just a shape in space: there's the shape, but energy goes on. And it comes from here. (shows)

What kind of directions would she give in that sense, to get those qualities?

She didn't give directions to you, but by showing it, you could see it. Then, she would say maybe 'weiter, weiter' [further and further]. But that's not enough as a direction. Then she became more specific later. So, in the beginning was lots of guessing and looking very well at her. 'Well, how is she doing this?'

Space is a very important element for. It's a very important aspect. Putting people in space. Little more like this.

She never expressed of what she wanted, that was very hard for her. You cannot say that in words. Also, she didn't know where it would go. Because after she starts, then it has to develop itself by trying things, it has to develop in the repetitions, in the rehearsals, of course. So, it's not that she has a plan. Unless you have a theme, like in the operas: then you know. She looked over at the music, she had to talk with the conductor, then certain things were cut. And that's a different kind of preparation than the pieces later on, that were done from scratch. So, that's very different. But, she always had the problem of telling what she was looking for. Ed Kortland and me, we were sad about that, and we thought we go to Arno Wüstenhöffer, the Intendant [General Director]. Let's go and talk with him about this. How can we approach her? This man was like a father for us. It was wonderful. He was so understanding. Then, he came with an example to clarify about Pina Bausch. And that was from a scene from an Alfred Hitchcock film.

Dial M for Murder

Yeah. I think it's from that film, and there's Grace Kelly in it. And then she has to sit, and then the camera is going, and he stands before her, then he said: 'Just watch my finger, dear.' (shows) So, he slowly, slowly moves. Then, it's the end. 'Cut! Camera stops.' So, she was like: 'Is this all? You know, I've done nothing.' She was, of course, surprised and unsure about what's happening. 'I've done nothing. I haven't acted.' But of course, she forgets, or she's not aware that there are more aspects showing in art, or a piece of dance, or a theater piece, whatever. You have more aspects: he has music, maybe other sounds are going on. There's the light, the color of her dress, her hair, everything is there. And that all together makes the scene, it gives the the meaning to the scene, and that's what many people forget. Especially with Hitchcock, he was very aware of color. And you see in this movie also: in beginning, she has colorful dresses and it becomes grayer and grayer, darker. Of course, her destiny became obscure, gray. She was supposed to be killed. So, that's the whole thing, maybe we are not aware as a public, that it's happening. Sometimes, you even don't notice, because you're so in the story. But, if you are a student of the film academy, you have to analyze the movies, and then, you see: 'Oh, yeah. This is what he does with sound, this is what he does with light, this is what he does with color, with the costumes.' Because every aspect is important for the whole piece. And I think, that for Pina Bausch, it's also important. She had to feel comfortable with her designers. First, Rolf Borzik, yeah, he was her partner also. And they did a lot of talking at home, of course. And later, with Peter Pabst I think she also had a very good relationship. Because, if she couldn't trust him in the work, then she wouldn't feel comfortable. She had to feel comfortable.

But also for the dancers, they have to have that trust in her. How did she create that atmosphere of trust?

Yeah. I can remember. That was on the movie of Wim Wenders that one of the little girls with his long, beautiful hair. One day Pina said to her: 'Why are you afraid of me?' And I thought: 'That's funny. I was never afraid of Pina Bausch. I was a friend.' We were really close friends together. We had a lot of time together, not only in the work, but also after that: that we had dinner together. But, there was more of an age difference with this girl and Pina Bausch. So, it was funny to hear: 'I'm afraid.' Why are you afraid? She is so sweet. She is the only teacher I had, or a choreographer, who doesn't yell at you. Who doesn't force you. Well, she forced us in a different way, in a gentle way. By just saying 'Nochmal, Bitte.' [Again please.] Especially the word 'Bitte': it's a polite word. That was 'angenehmen' [pleasant] also. Not the screaming choreographer: 'No, no.' Who commands! 'Nie schimpfen!' [Never scolding, ever!] At work, we were working together. I was asked from someone in Holland: 'Didn't you mind that do you have to work so long and so hard, and 'nochmal, nochmal'? [having to repeated over and over?]. 'No', I said. I never think like what you say now! We were just working with her, and you wanted better and better also. It was not a question of 'Oh God! She wants it again! Oh shit!' No, you don't think like that. That was the beautiful thing: you both concentrated in 'where do we go? This is what we want.' So, we have to do this again, yes again. Just working. Experiencing. So, that made her sweet! Yeah.

Movement-wise was Hans Pop doing a lot of repetition with you guys?

No, it was always Pina Bausch. No, she was always rehearsing. There were some times of when she was ill, that Hans Pop did a rehearsal. Very dry. One, two, three, four. You know, Pina never counted!

She never counted? 'Sacre'?

No. Yeah, well of course when we're learning. But this the beauty, there wasn't too much counting. There's one moment that we really counted. That was the 11: (shows) 'one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, tah tah tah, 11.' But for the rest, it's all phrases. (sings) 'Dee dee dee dee dee dee dee dee dee.' So, it's not that you do: one, two, three, four (sings). No, you sing. There was only one moment, because it has a staccato, with the music, of course. But it's true, this music is so complicated, still it wasn't necessary to count it, because you made it in phrases. Yeah. It's nice. It must be impossible to count The Rite of Spring. Also, for the emotion: (shows) one, two, three, four, five, six. Now, that's impossible. You don't have to count it. (laughs) That was a quality of her: making phrases.

Staying with Rolf Borzik. What about the costumes? At that point, the kind of costumes that he was proposing, wasn't very used in other dance pieces. Did you have an awareness of that?

I know a very nice story about costumes of Nachnull. Because she wanted to try out no costumes: naked. Do you know that story?

Well. Tell me.

(laughs) I wasn't there yet, and that's a pity. But, she wanted to try that, and the dancers were all girls, and she said: 'No, don't worry, we will be in the stage in the Folkwangschule, we will shut the doors. Only Hans Züllig will watch.' Because, of course she wanted somebody else to watch as well. And I'm not sure if there also was another woman. And they needed light, because you have to see it in light of. So, there must have been some other people as well. But, really watching then was Pina, but she thought it was too aesthetic. Isn't that beautiful? Because she was also looking for aesthetics, but it was TOO aesthetic: so costumes. (laughs) And then we have Tannhäuser Bacchanal: very thin costume, flesh color. All the way. And Susanne Linke was 'Oh, no no. Awful!' And then, Pina showed it with one of the girls of the Folkwangschule, a very pretty, thin girl – beautiful girl. And then, Susanne said: 'Yeah. Of course, it stands well on her. She can even put on a garbage bag, and still she will be beautiful.' But, of course, Pina Bausch said she wanted it like that, so it happened like that.

But then, in Fritz comes all these crazy costumes.

Yeah. The poor guys, who are together like [siamese] twins. They have to move together, all the time - it's difficult. Then, the grandmother have this problem. Then, me with the penis (laughs). With Bluebeard we had the little dress, as we called it, and the big dress. The little dress was in a thin material, but it always was a little too big. You also see this in Café Müller with Malou Airaudo. She wears an extremely big, kind of underslip, little dress. We always had a little too big dress, so it moved better. I think that was the secret. Then, with Jan Minařík and Marlis Alt, at the end, that he put on all the dresses on her - terrible. That must be hard for her, because you get a feeling of suffocating. You can't breathe anymore. There's more and more and more. And every time, I was surprised that he could put even another dress on her. She was already like a Michelin-man and then, another one. Of course, they're very often torn, so every time the costume people had to repair after 'Bluebeard' - a lot of repairing. Sometimes, it's so difficult with Pina Bausch, sometimes she made it so difficult, but I don't think it's on purpose. I mean, the different floor coverings, it's difficult. The costumes were difficult, but it had to be like that.

Maybe, we can now move to 'Café Müller*. Gigi-Georghe Caciuléanu and Gerhard Bohner, as well.

Yeah. From him, I can't remember so much. I only know that I didn't like it so much. Gigi-Georghe Caciuléanu I liked very much. It's a little crazy, this guy also. He's very fast worker, very fast. Doing things and learning it, then you get lots of material. And then, after a few days: 'Okay. From there to there, skip it. Out!' Or, it was: 'from there to there you put it there (shows) and that part comes there.' Okay. Next time. 'No. Wrong. We do this.' In that period, I really learned to learn quickly, and to remember the [order] (shows). Horrible, horrible, horrible. But, he was such a nice, charming guy that you accepted it also. Well, I did. I didn't mind. You just played with it? 'Oh, God! You again!' These things that you say then. – Very creative. Very good dancer himself. We wanted to see ten pirouetes from him. 'No problem.' (shows) Then, one day, he did like in ice skating: [turning] (shows) people go down, and up. (laughs) I didn't understand how he did that. It's crazy, but he could do it. He had a phenomenal technique.

He came first to Paris, I think. He left the country [Romania] as a refugee and that he went to Paris and maybe he heard of Pina Bausch. Maybe he met her there, I don't know.

I mean, when did you meet him?

Yeah. In the Folkwangschule, and he was really shocked by the what there was to buy in the shops. The amount of stuff in the shops. He thought it was obscene. He didn't like it at all. He had always mandarines in the studio, we could take the mandarines. It was nice working with him. Very nice.

We recently had this exhibition at the Schauspielhaus Wuppertal, where we showed many of the Café Müller material, and we had the videos. Did that bring some sparks of memories?

Yeah. I thought, it's not bad what I do there. I thought. (laughs) It gave a warm feeling. I thought. Yeah. And also the others, like Dana Sapiro with her pirouettes in her attitude derrière. Yeah! I thought, wow! There she goes! This is very good. Yeah.

Talking about attitudes derrière, pirouettes, ten pirouettes. Was there some kind of different levels of technique in the company, was there some sort of hierarchy or special things: these people are good for this, and these people are good for that?

Yeah. Pina Bausch was a very specific, and there were differences in technique. I was more a modern dancer than a classical dancer. So, my modern technique was, was stronger than some other people. I was not so much aware that people experienced it like that. I didn't know that. Because, then one day Mari Di Lena told me: 'Oh, you're such a good modern dancer.' Yeah, people said that that my strength was the modern technique. And there were people who had danced not so long or not very long. Or like Malou Airaudo, who was a star already when she came in. I cannot imagine Malou being somewhere in corps de ballet. Nor Dominique Mercy.

Did your modern dance training make it easier for you to come into the ideas of improvisation and in the creation?

Maybe, could be very much possible. Because, already in the Academy we had improvisation classes. So, you're open to it, not afraid of it. You have already some experience. And also, I like it. I like to do improvisation or choreographing. I always think also of the whole. When I make something, then I'm very much aware: 'okay there's a beginning, there's a development and there's an end.' And some people, they just go with the flow. I start already choreographing at the same time, there is something in me. But there's another aspect: Visualizing. You must know that too.

Yes. Can you describe that for us?

Visualizing. I love that and many dancers love that because they don't have to do anything, than just lie there and visualize what you are doing. Where do you begin, where is pause. But, it is important that you stay with the rhythm. The musicality is very important, too. So, it's not only that you think: (shows) 'Oh yeah. Huh? Oh, yeah, then this.' No, you must go: (sings) 'Huh? Yeah. Huh.' It goes together with the music. That's what sport people also do. I heard not so long ago, with a lady runner that she's always visualizing before. How to do the beginning, how to develop, and then how to end. And I thought: 'We dancers know that too!' That helps. So, I have learned that to other people I was working with. I said: 'You don't always have to move. At home you lie in bed and try to visualize how it looks like.' And they really had a good experience with that. They said: 'well, it helps!' 'Of course it helps.' That's an important thing to do, makes you stronger. Yeah. How do you do that? Just see it.

Marking. Marking during rehearsals. Was that something that was done? Because in some companies, the dancers go there and mark together? Is that helpful? How?

Yeah, but that's also an art. Really! When Pina saw us often marking, she was not satisfied about that. 'That's not marking. It's just doing a little movement.' Because, also there, the musicality is very important, and do the complete movement, only with less force. She said: 'Yeah, it is difficult to do good marking.' And there are dancers who do not know how to mark – Hiltrud Blanck, she didn't know how to mark. She did it always full out. You see that with actors too, they go full out, of course, directors love that. But it's tiring. Good marking – we did that a lot also, and sometimes she said: 'Yeah. Now you know you can mark.' But, most of the time it was full-out. She wanted it – she's right – otherwise she cannot see it. How does it look if somebody is (shows) just marking? Because you need to see it complete: the right energy, the right movements, the right coping with people, or space, or water. There are so many aspects in dance, and how do you mark it? Visualizing is better. I think. Everything or nothing. That's the best.

Everything or nothing.

Is there something that I forgot? (laughs) Is there something that you've been thinking about these days, as we talked about having this interview day. 'That's important to talk about. '

Well, for me, it was important to talk about all these aspects of space and movement. That was important. That is her signature, actually. So we have discussed it. Little things we did, there was also a funny moment: I was not in Ich bring dich um die Ecke… [I'll Do You In…], and I had to learn later, the place from Margaret Huggenberger. (in German) She is a short woman, and I am much taller. So, I wore the raincoat. Pina was watching and said: 'No, no, no. Could you make yourself a bit smaller?' (laughs) 'No, Pina, come on, that doesn't go... that doesn't work.' But I really tried it. It is kind of okay, but that's also typical Pina Bausch. It's important that the people you replace, that there's something in it that's the same. She couldn't accept that the people are different. You know, the form is not that important then.

You probably experienced a lot of people coming into roles and that's always a theme: you need a small woman, you need this and that. How important is this, which, sometimes, it's called typecasting?

Yeah. She did it. It was clear who did what. It was quite clear. In the beginning, you all together do the same things, and then she considers who is good for this or that. Or from the start, it's clear that this person has to do that, that person has to do that. I wouldn't call it typecasting, it's so one dimensional.

Skill set. Yeah. When you left the company, you stayed as a guest for a couple of seasons, in which pieces?

Bluebeard. While Listening to a Tape Recording of Béla Bartók's Opera 'Duke Bluebeard's Castle' and I was also asked for the film of The Rite of Spring, but I had performances myself in Holland. I was also asked to tour to Australia, but I had performances. Then, typical Pina Bausch: 'Can't you cancel those?' (laughs) I said: 'Pina, we are professional company. I can not cancel that.' We were a small company, we were five people and we had money. I had a better salary there, than here in Germany. But, she wanted, and yeah, that's what I call a difficult thing with her: that she's more important than others. No, this is my work, now at the moment. But she asked often people, in the beginning, to be guests – also Dominique Mercy, because she wanted the same person in that place, in that role. I think it's different now. Later on, it became really different, I think she accepted that people are different and is not necessary to have the same. Unless, she asked for something so special. But, that was the reason why we were always asked to be a guest – and I liked it, of course.

Of course. You were, in the next couple of years as a guest there, so there was Kontakthof and other pieces, but afterwards, did you keep in contact?

Yeah, I always came for premieres, or later when I had the time. I liked it, I wanted to keep in touch, and always had a little talk with her. That I regret: that after we left Essen-Werden and then came Wuppertal, and it became bigger and bigger, and she had more people jumping at her after performances, this contact between her and me became less and less and less. I really regretted that, because we had a very nice relationship, but that's how life goes then. There's no time.

Dieter Kloos, he was giving the classes. There was also a problem. We had to have put point shoes at the end of the barre. Then at night, we danced Sacre, next morning, pointe shoes at night Sacre. So that was impossible. Sacre down, down, down. Pointe up, up, up. So, I talked with Pina Bausch. People didn't dare to talk with her. That's true. I didn't. I was not afraid of her, I said: 'This is not good for the body. And it's impossible. I mean, we w fight with our body. This is a fight already. To dance Sacre. She agreed. And there were no more pointe shoes.

So, she would listen. Yes, if you talk to her. She'll listen.

This she really understood. Yeah. She thought also, maybe we might do something on point shoes. Also, when she asked me to join the company in Wuppertal, she said: 'You should also expect, that you also will dance in the operettes.' And I said: 'I don't want to. I come here for you. Not for the opera.' But of course, we had to do.

What is Tanztheater?

What's Tanztheater? It was a place where I felt at home – it was my life. It was not a job. Even if I sometimes talk about working, it was never a job. It was being home. It was a passion. I learned a lot about movement and I learned a lot from Pina Bausch personally. What I learned from her was integrity. You cannot think: 'Oh, I have to make work for the public!' One older colleagues once said: 'I want to be a very modern choreographer.' And I replied: 'You cannot say that. You can only make the work you need to make.' And that's exactly what Pina Bausch did. (in German) Sometimes she was accused of not thinking of the public. And she replied: 'Who is this public? What I see is thousands of people. They all don't have the same taste. Yeah. Some people will like it, others won't. Those that don't like it will stay away. Another public will come.' And that's what happened. So, for me, that was a very important period in my life. Yes.

Wonderful. We've come to the end of this oral history interview. I thank you very, very much for sharing all of these memories with us.