Interview with Bénédicte Billiet, 5/10/2022

How did you start dancing?

That's a long story. As a child, I wanted to be a trapeze artist. I also say that in the piece Nelken. At that time our TV was in black and white, we were allowed to watch things like circus shows. I was fascinated by it and it became a professional dream of mine. But there were no circus schools like today, you had to be born into a circus family. I often complained that I couldn't learn that at all, and my mother enrolled me in gymnastics to calm me down. So, I learned to walk on the beam, to do rolls. I took part in many tournaments in my hometown of Lille. We also had competitions with other cities, that was very nice. At some point my father fell ill, he got well afterwards, but in that time my mother couldn't take care of me. She didn't want me to stay at home alone, so she asked one of my sister's teachers if I could take part in the dance class. My sister had dance classes at school. I didn't have that. That was probably something new at the school, my sister is younger than me. I went to these dance classes and the teacher told my mother how amazing it was that I could do almost all the steps. My parents also took us to performances. We went to opera, operettas. I am very grateful that my parents make this possible for me and my sister. We also went to watch ballets. One teacher told my mother how I transformed myself when I watched a performance. I was a shy child, very introverted, and this teacher told my mother: "I observed her, and it is wonderful how she immerses herself in the plays!" So, my mother signed me up for dance classes.

Any specific plays that you can remember?

I remember the opera. I had, and I still have a very naïve look. An example was in the opera La Bohème, an aria that I still carry in my heart. There is a moment when Mimi is sick and dying. She had no heating – very topical. A friend gives her his coat, and he sings a wonderful song just to say goodbye to this coat. That touched me so much as a small child, and it still touches me. That's a very big memory for me. Sure, it's very naïve, it was more about the deed and not necessarily about the quality of the singing or the music. Still, it touched me so much in my childhood. My parents were not artists, and this was direct contact with art for me. I didn't learn an instrument, I didn't learn to sing, and I hadn't learned to dance yet. I was very naïve and just soaked it up.

Back to our story: your teacher explained that you were completely immersed in this world of theater ...

That moved my mother to do it. I think she might have liked to go into the art world herself, but it wasn't possible because of the war, and she had to work, and so on. She was happy to sign me up for this course. In me, the wish to make this my profession came very quickly afterwards, but that didn't please my father at all. I was twelve. My father was very old and he had the idea of the dance world from the century ago – very much like in Degas' paintings: old men who come to help young girls, but we don't know exactly what that meant. He thought that it wouldn't be a good idea for me to become a dancer. Later, when I started to do well, and my teachers said: "Yes, it's good,you should keep going.", he completely changed his mind and became interested. He was a journalist and worked in the editorial office. He started writing articles about dance in my hometown of Lille. He documented the scene, less of criticism. It was wonderful to experience this transformation. Then, I studied at the Dance Conservatory of Lille. After two years, a dancer who worked in the company in Lille recommended to my mother that I travel to Paris to study there, he thought that only there I could really continue improving.

What did you learn in the conservatory: ballet, modern?

Only classical ballet. At that time, many schools only offered classic. No music, modern, only classical.

Your friend recommended that you study in Paris ...

My mother decided to sent me to Paris and my father agreed. This was incredible and I am very grateful. I moved to Paris when I was 14. I lived alone, and my parents supported me financially, completely. I was accepted into the Paris Conservatory. I wanted to go to the Paris Opera. That was my dream: to become a classical dancer, Étoile at the Paris Opera. But, I was too old for that, I was already 14, that was already too old to get into school. Then, I was accepted to the Conservatoire National de Danse de Paris and studied there for three years. There was only classical ballet, a little music and a little adage, a little partnering, but in a classical way. We had exams every year. After those three years, I was told I was too fat, I had no style at all. I was 17. So I didn't have the figure to become a classic ballerina, and I would be better off, if I just went back to the provinces. So, I took pills to get a little thinner, and so on. Thank God, not so long.

Have you started auditioning? How was it?

Yes, right after I was done with this school, I started auditioning. Two auditions were not successful, then in the third, I was accepted into the Ballet de Lyon. That was for me the end of my life. It was really dramatic. I was in the Ballet de Lyon, directed by Vittorio Biagi, who had worked with Maurice Béjart. For me, that was modern dance and I thought it was really terrible. I didn't want to be a modern dancer, I wanted to be classical ballet dancer. I had the feeling that modern was about rolling on the floor and nothing else. With this feeling of la mort dans l'âme – death in my soul – I moved to Lyon and started working there. Amazingly, I immediately felt that here is something different and something that actually suits me better. I worked there for three years. We had three or four performance series every year. I had daily lessons, just a normal ballet company. In the course of these three years, I read an article. I always read dance publications and read an article about Pina Bausch. It was an article from 1974, about the premiere of The Rite of Spring ((premiere 03.12.1975)). A very small article, written by a man, and he was horrified. He thought it was horrible, and he was very derogatory to this woman. That touched me. I was shy, I wasn't sure of myself, and that fascinated me a lot: how could a woman – described as thin and long – do something so strong that made someone so angry? I hadn't seen the work, it was only these few lines.

As a result – and not only because of this, I left this company to explore more about modern dance, and moved back to Paris. I first took dance classes with Peter Goss – he came from Jazz Dance and José Limón. He had developed his own style. Beautiful lessons, I enjoyed very much and am still very influenced by it. He is still very important to me and at some point I danced into one of his performances. They were very nice performances, but I was still missing something. That's why I was still looking for something. While working with Peter Goss, I met Dominique Mercy. He had already worked in Wuppertal. He had been in the company and took a sabbatical year, and was again in Paris. We danced together in some performances from Peter Goss, a beautiful dancer. I heard that he was going to guest in Wuppertal to dance Pina's pieces at the first small festival. The pieces were Iphigenie auf Tauris, Orpheus and Eurydice and the premiere of The Seven Deadly Sins. I really wanted to see him on stage, and there was this Pina Bausch, from whom I had read this few lines. That was the opportunity to finally see what she does. So, I came to Wuppertal. I had no money and Dominique told me: „You can definitely sleep with Pina“. That indeed happened. I was still very shy and just smiled. We always had very nice smiles together, but we didn't speak that much because I didn't really speak German, only a little English, and Pina didn't speak French. I saw the performances and I had the feeling that now I found what I'm looking for, to express these kinds of things. I took class with the company, and the people were very welcome. It was very nice.

The training with the company was not yet in the Lichtburg, was it in the dance studio?

That was in the ballet studio in the opera, nice space, it's a shame it no longer exists. At this point I've only been there for three days, later I experienced more of that when I was in the company. Some dancers asked me if I wanted to work in the company, but that wasn't my goal at all. I just wanted to see what Pina Bausch was doing, I was still in Paris with Peter Goss in the independent scene. I had no intention to move on. Still, I had the feeling that I had found what I wanted for myself. I went back to Paris and worked there for two more years. Two years later, Pina came to Paris with Bluebeard at the Théâtre de la Ville. That was a scandal. There were so many strong reactions from the audience. There were a lot of boos from people who didn't like it at all. At the performance where I was, someone who had a seat at the very top of Théâtre de la Ville was so angry, he complained, went all the way down the stairs, went out and scolded all the time. I found it so fascinating, I liked these reactions so much, even if it wasn't necessarily so nice for the dancers. When they came to Paris, it was not a good time for me. I was searching. I didn't have a lot of work, and not a lot of money. Nevertheless, it remains a very nice and rich time for me, working in the independent scene in Paris. Because we were always starting something, we believed in it and fought for it. That made this period so valuable for me. Still, I didn't feel at ease to go meet the dancers. Pina Bausch had organized an audition in Paris, in the rotunda of the Théâtre de la Ville, and I went to it. I was at the auditions together with Janusz Subicz and Nazareth Panadero, whom I had met at the courses with Peter Goss. After these auditions we went to a restaurant: Janusz, Nazareth, Pina and other people. Pina told me that she thought my dance was very beautiful, but that she had the feeling that I didn't really know what I wanted yet. She said: "Come to Wuppertal and we can try a little and see." I was a little offended and thought, "No, it's all or not at all." So, I didn't go to Wuppertal. Nazareth and Janusz were engaged into the company.

I continued my freelance life and two years later Dominique Mercy called me and told me: "Pina is looking for a woman. Don't you want to try again?" In the meantime, Anne Martin had told me: "Pina likes you, come over." But, I was stubborn and said "No". Two years later, I wasn't so stubborn anymore and came to Wuppertal and auditioned again. We were five women and at the end of this audition I was hired. I was hired on the steps of the opera house, next to the stage. This remains a place that is very strong for me. Pina hired me. She told me again that she loved the way I danced, but she had a problem with my voice. It took me many years to understand what that was. Because I thought my voice wasn't beautiful, but in the end I was afraid to use my voice. I was scared. I just couldn't use my voice properly. That was the right thing to do here. In the work it was very often that Pina asked questions, and we answered with dancing, talking, everything you wanted. When I tried to speak, Pina looked at me and said, "Your voice!" I always exploded into 1000 pieces, it was really terrible. And peu à peu, over time, with a lot of time, learned to accept my voice and just understand, it's not about how beautiful my voice is or not, but using it correctly as I do today, for example. Exactly. But it was a tough process.

Can you describe what you learned? How could you change that?

Can you remember which pieces you learned first?

So the first pieces I learned. I don't know exactly in what order, was 1980 and Kontakthof. We played these pieces a lot, because back then the repertoire wasn't as big as it is today anyway. I came in August 1981, at the beginning I didn't understood much. It was very, very strange this work. I wanted to work in this company: that was the work that had fascinated me. But, I didn't understand anything, and it took me a while to perhaps understand something.

1981 August: that was the creation of Bandoneon, right?

Bandoneon was just finished, but you're right, Bandoneon is also in the pieces I learned. An anecdote: when I came to Wuppertal to audition, and I was hired, I watched a performance of Bandoneon that evening. The piece had just been created, and I was sitting in the audience. There is a lot of speaking in the play, so there is a lot of text and I didn't understand German and had no idea what they were saying. So, I created my own stories about what the play is about, but it was completely off the mark. At some point, at the end of the first part, the technicians come on stage and they dismantle the stage, they take everything away. Then I thought: "What's going on here? And why is the stage empty now?" In the second part, Nazareth came with her poem. She wanted to read her poem, there was a bucket of water next to Nazareth. A man came on the stage, and he took the bucket with the water. Nazaret felt that something was strange and went out. The man was with the bucket and actually wanted to pour out on Nazareth. I wasn't sure, "Is it in the play or is it not in the play?" And when the man was alone, he just threw the water into the audience and went out screaming. It was clearly someone who simply couldn't stand the piece. After that, I understood that Pina never used or would never use this kind of provocation. Yes, that was a very big impression just before I joined the company.

The first pieces were Kontakthof and 1980. 1980 was the first test for my voice. There is a scene where you tell what you are afraid of in the dark. People come one after the other and excitedly say: "Yes, I was scared. There were completely black figures ..." That's something that was almost impossible for me. The play started, that comes 20 minutes after the beginning and until these 20 minutes were over, I was just shaking. I would like to do it again and could do it with pleasure. But unfortunately it was like that at that time, that was my beginning in the company.

The first piece you were at the time of its creation was played in Amsterdam. Can you remember this piece?

That was Walzer. I have mixed feelings about this creation. It was very hard for me because I was very introverted, I couldn't open up properly. I often questioned why Pina hired me, because I could never deliver that much. Nevertheless, I have also very fond memories of this work. I can't say exactly why. There were moments when I really enjoyed working on these questions. There were moments when I was very ashamed, still I have fond memories of the rehearsal time, but I couldn't precisely say why.

For Bandoneon, you didn't understand the language, but your imagination was there. The process of working on those questions or tasks, has also to do with imagination, was that new? Was that difficult for you?

That was very new. I like to work, but I want someone to show me what I have to do, I find this very fulfilling. This is something I already questioned in Paris, during my time in the modern dance world. If you didn't choreograph or develop pieces yourself, you were a bit of an underdancer. That was my feeling: to reproduce was not enough, you have to be creative. But, that was actually what I liked. I had no idea what to expect from Pina. I enjoyed when I was asked something, worked on it, then I did it, as beautifully as I could. That was very satisfying. It wasn't like that anymore. Sure, there was a lot of work and skill involved, but there were other things in it. It was a completely different approach to the work: these many, many details. It was a learning process, to realize that you could work so finely. I was no longer told: "Yes, that's good. You can do better. Look here." You were left alone with it, although in pieces like The Rite of Spring this was a bit different, it was a piece I felt very comfortable, because I could recognize the tasks involved in the work. But in pieces like Kontakthof, I have difficulty finding what to do next. What should I do better? How should I be? Figuring out this by myself was very foreign to me. I didn't dare. I had the feeling that I had no ideas at all. Only now, I'm starting to have ideas, after so many years.

You took on a role in the piece Renate Emigrates. Can you tell us a little bit about it?

Yes, that was very, very nice. That was the role of Mari DiLena – who unfortunately died a few months ago. She was no longer in the company and I was supposed to do her part. I met with her about it. In this play Renate emigrates she reads letters, five or four times. She had written the letters herself. She imagines someone writing love letters to her. They always start with "Dear Mari". Pina gave me this role. I spoke very bad English, certainly with a terrible accent. Mari DiLena gave me her letters and told me a little bit about them, to help me do well. It was different from 1980, there I had to find my own text, and it was already too much for me, although it really wasn't difficult at all. I couldn't say my own text, but "Dear Mari" was something that I had learned, and that I tried to make as beautiful as possible. Surprisingly, that worked! It was very fast. Very nice role, I'm very grateful.

Then, there are other pieces that you premiered with the company, including Carnations and On the Mountain a Cry Was Heard. Let's stay with On the Mountain a Cry Was Heard. Do you have any memories or something you helped create?

In On the Mountain a Cry Was Heard Pina created a sequence for the men that I thought it was so nice, that I also did it in the studio with them. Sometimes, I did have more confidence in myself, so I did this sequence with the men. It was about swinging your legs, rolling backwards and getting up again, I did that and had a lot of fun doing it. At the end, Pina asks if I could do it alone between the trees. That's how it came about. It was often that Pina asked things, but something happened at the same time and that was taken and not that what she asked for at the first moment. I really enjoyed doing this. But there were always, always, always suggestions: "No, now you have to shine more, even more. You need even more rhythm. Don't always show up in the same way, sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes very slow." It was never just right... but that was good, because there was always something to be improved. That was very constructive criticism: to simply tickle how it can be done even better.

Can you describe what happens there?

Yes, there are pine trees on stage. I was embarrassed that so many Christmas trees were cut off for me and for Beatrice Libonati – she was also in the scene afterwards. So, I come in and smile at the audience, a little cheeky and first I fall. There were several questions, one question was "play death". I come and I drop dead. It was a physical response. I fall and look at the audience. I think: "That's not true at all." I get up and run, go behind a tree and do this roll, which is what I practiced with the men, fall dead again and look again. And so on, and so on. It's a very simple scene, but a beautiful, happy scene, even though the question was about death.

It has a very, very playful character, almost childlike. In the next piece Two Cigarettes in the Dark you also have a special role there.

In Two Cigarettes in the Dark I have a nice dance, then at some point, I go to the front. I look at the audience and listen, while I make sounds like: "Hm. Aha. Hm. Hm." At some point I say: "I'm cute. I am cute and sweet. I'm a sweet, cute little thing." I say that several times until Dominique Mery calls me off. I did this in response to a question from Pina, I don't remember exactly what it was. I would have to look in my notebook. It seems easy to say "I'm cute", but there are many different ways to say this, and it wasn't always right. Pina told me: "Actually, you're not cute at all. You say it, but you're not cute at all." Yes, it was always such a challenge to say it in such a way that you think it is actually dangerous. Being sweet is unfortunately something that has always haunted me. I was sweet from the first day I started at Pina's and stayed sweet until the last day. And that's not only pleasant, and also outside the work, you are also burdened by things, even if you're cute.

So by now, you found your voice, true?

Yes, it did get better. Nevertheless, I still dreaded when I had to talk on stage. Today I can practice at home. I can say something in my room: "And yes, it has to be more like this or that." But at that time, I still wasn't able to do that by myself. It took a very long time.

As the repertoire grew there were also many trips abroad and tours. How was that for you? Did you enjoy that: the travels, the different theatres?

Yes, I enjoyed that: other theatres, other cities. Whenever we went to another country, I tried to learn a little bit of the language. I found it very enriching just to be somewhere else. A stage is always a stage, I think no matter where you are, you are at home on the stage. So, that's where you feel right at home: whether it's a small stage, a big stage. I can't really distinguish them. Some theatres like La Fenice, I know they are very unique, but I don't remember other stages. But yes, that was always home.

The piece Viktor was the first ceate as a city co-production. Do you have any memories of being in Rome?

I was in Rome. I don't quite remember stories, but rather a flavour. I can't say if it was in autumn, but I remember the city through work. We worked normal hours, a lot in the studio, at the theater. It wasn't like the later co-productions, where you get a lot of invitations to visit places. It was the first official co-production, which means we were in residence and we worked. Other than that, you kept your eyes open when out and about to collect impressions. I can't remember that a special program was set for us, still a lot of those impressions were incorporated into the piece.

One thing that appears in Viktor is flying holding on to these rings. Was that somehow like trapeze of your childhood?

I have no idea how that came about to the piece. Good that I didn't become a trapeze artist because I was afraid. I always had the feeling that my hands were slipping. I was afraid to do that.

Do you remember the creation of Ahnen?

In Ahnen I wore this beautiful dress from Claudia Irman. She used to do ballroom dance and she once brought this yellow dress with her. I wore it, in the task to a question. I forgot the question, but I asked Claudia if I could use her dress. We always had plenty of props available in the Lichtburg. I placed myself under the dress and came out like this, bare chested, and said in a yawn: "Oh, I fell asleep." A reference to The Little Prince, when the rose opens in the morning. I thought my idea was wonderful, Pina didn't think it was bad either, but I wasn't able to repeat it with the same impact. That's why it didn't make it into the piece, even thought it was so nice. One important thing was to be able to repeate something you've done as an answer to a task with the same impact, that way she could see that the idea had substance. If not, clearly it can't work. Nevertheless, the dress remained in the piece, I am there as a princess and am tendered that way. This piece has a special atmosphere. I don't know much about how it came about. I know that the creation process for all the pieces took a lot of time. A very long time, it means a lot of frustration for everyone, because there were many propositions that didn't make it into the piece. A lot of frustration for Pina as well, who didn't get any further. But I can't tell more details or stories about Ahnen now.

Doubt seems to be a very important thing, even for Pina Bausch herself. She says that in many interviews: that it is simply so – there are doubts, always! ... My question is: how important is that? Is the process of self-discovery part of the artistic discovery of a piece?

For myself, there were very, very many doubts. You were never sure whether you had done well at all or not. It was painful, but that gave a special quality. A special quality ... I can't find the word, but then you didn't fake – although there is a lot of acting in Pina's pieces – but again there is a lot of places where you are yourself, and only through these doubts can you be yourself, I think.

To put it again: is overcoming doubt the place where you find the security, or better, the will to show something? Does this overcoming help to consolidate a truth in a scene?

Yes, I think so, because you go deeper into yourself. You look for an answer to these doubts and maybe find something. These doubts: Was that right? Is that what she is looking for? What else could I do? I can't find anything! What else could I find? Then suddenly things come up that were unexpected.

After Ahnen the work on the film starts. Did you participate in Lament of the Empress? How was that?

Yes, I did work in the Lament of the Empress as in the other pieces, with questions and answers. Unfortunately, none of my ideas were anything special and I am not in the film, or better, I am to be seen once. I'm in Malou's dress from Walzer and I'm spinning cartwheels. You see a blue dress in the movie and that's me. But that's all. And that was shortly before I stopped dancing in the company.

Can you tell us about it? What motivated you, or what happened?

I was tired of going on stage. I decided, with my husband, to go away for a year. He applied for a sabbatical year as a teacher and I asked Pina Bausch if I could go away for a year. She agreed. We lived in Berlin for a year. This time was amazing! This year, the Berlin Wall fell. When we got the news, we had just arrived in Berlin. We went straight to the wall, sat on it and were really happy. These were really blessed days, where everyone looked at each other, smiled at each other. That changed quickly, but in the beginning it was really great. After a year in Berlin, I asked Pina Bausch if I could come back. She agreed and offered me to work as an assistant for her. I took that offer. I thought I had given everything I could as a performer, I had reached my limit. In any case, I became an assistant and sat next to her for a year. I played the videos and took notes. It was fascinating to be next to her as she was creating a piece. I had two children: Mathieu and Sofia. When Sofia was two months old, I went back to work. Working with Pina Bausch as an assistant was very demanding. Time had no limits. It's fascinating, but I had no life beyond it. I couldn't split my time between my family and work, as a result, I became ill. That made me quit, I couldn't cope with it. It was beyond my strength and my decision for my children was clear. My husband and I then raised the children for ten years. I am very grateful for this time. After ten years, I have the feeling that it's time to go back to work, otherwise it won't work anymore. Pina Bausch asked me at that moment if I would help at Kontakthof for seniors and young people

You lived in Wuppertal, didn't you? Did you follow the work? Did you watched the premieres? Did you observe her work evolve from a distance? There were pieces like "Madrid" [Tanzabend II], Das Stück mit dem Schiff, Trauerspiel, Danzón. How was that?

When I was away, I was able to detach myself, clearly. I had a better understanding. During work, there is always a lot of frustration. Now, I could understand Pina Bausch much better. Why she reacts this way or why she does it that way. During work, I couldn't really see everything calmly and be clear with her or with myself. As with the pieces, it is clear to see how Pina evolved with her 48 or 42 pieces. How that has developed. By the the time I left, that is when they started dancing again. We didn't dance so much before. Then the dance was much more celebrated, it became lighter.

Did you start to teach as well?

I can't teach. I would love to, but I can't. To give lessons, you have to be consistent. I am unable to command: it's not good enough, do it again. I can't do that.

But as an assistant you have to, don't you?

Yes, it's true. I have directed rehearsals, but mostly not alone, because I can't do it. All these people in front of me, that's too much. Although I would have so much to say, I shy away.

After a few years away from the company, an offer came from Pina Bausch to work on Kontakthof. With Ladies and Gentlemen over 65 . Do you have an overview of how the project came about?

Supposedly, Pina Bausch said when she made Kontakthof, that she would like to see the piece with her own dancers when they have all grown old. Of course, it takes a long time to get old. A dancer's body ages differently, perhaps than other bodies. In any case, that did not take place, but this desire was probably very strong in Pina. I can't say how, but did this idea come up to work with older amateur people, people who may have never danced. That's how it came about. In the beginning, Jo Ann Endicott, Beatrice Libonati and Hans Pop restaged the piece with the older people. At some point, Hans Pop couldn't doit anymore, and that's why Pina asked to join Beatrice and Jo. First as performance director (Abendleitung), that means being present to making sure that everything is right, and so on. Later, I continued, only with Jo Ann Endicott for the project Kontakthof. With Teenagers over 14 restaging the piece with teenagers.

Another task taht came to you in this time was the documentation work ...

Yes, that came about that time. Pina had the idea or desire to start an archive for quite some time, and had been looking for spaces. When she was ready to get started, she gathered her whole team and asked each of us collect all the materials in their department for all pieces. For example, let's take the piece On the Mountain a Cry Was Heard that all posters are collected. The work, that the archives of the Pina Bausch Foundation are doing now, had already started. Jo Ann Endicott and I were responsible for reviewing videos. We spent many hours watching videos and Pina Bausch sometimes came by and said: "You take far too much time." Maybe she really had the feeling that this has to be done quickly. When Jo Ann and I watched the videos, we sometimes were amused or on the contrary, appalled: "Oh my God, I'm terrible there." We looked together, and evaluated. Pina didn't like that, she wanted it to go swiftly. She'd say: "Look for something nice, but don't waste any time. What is not beautiful is not beautiful." She was a bit radical in that respect.

What is beautiful?

What is beautiful? She didn't explain that. I think I can find something beautiful and Pina wouldn't find it beautiful.

Did you developed a system for which videos are then discarded and which are considered more valuable?

Yes, we had a system. In the beginning we naively just watched one video after the other and wrote our thoughts. Later, when the work with the Foundation began, we developed a system with Barbara Kaufmann – I don't think we did it before. I don't remember anymore. This system of colored dots, i.e. red, was a video that was impossible, rather from the quality of the image: you didn't see anything at all. You don't need to watch a video like that. Yellow was "maybe good", and blue was something really valuable. This allows you to concentrate on the good videos. Some videos were good for showing others, some videos were good for work, but not necessarily for being shown: this variable also complicated this system.

Have you also written down the scene sequences? How did you get this information? What would you have to research or ask?

With the Pina Bausch Foundation, we worked with Marc Wagenbach. He helped a lot to develop a system. This was a task that I gave myself. Because the pieces evolved, or sometimes Pina has taken out some scenes or sometimes changed the order a bit, then in order to bring these different videos into one system – so you can watch videos online, for example there is Palermo Palermo online. But to get there we had to watch and decide what should be archived and with what information?

How did the lists for the order of the different pieces come about?

There was the idea of digitizing videos and give names to the scenes, so that you can access a particular scene. These names were based on – we exchanged a lot with Barbara – the titles given by Pina. She gave titles to each scene in her pieces, mostly derived from the questions asked. We took these titles as the basis for the sequence, then the videos were viewed. I made a sequence of the titles from videos from this date to this date, then from this date Pina had changed something – one scene for example – and so I made a new sequence for the piece, and that until 2009. This is how this sequences came about: as the basis for the digitization and retrievability of the scenes.

Correct. But there were also the entire books of all the materials (cues) of the course of the different pieces.

The director's scripts (Regiebücher). Yes, Pina Bausch did that herself. Not at the very beginning, I think from 1980 onwards, before that, there were annotations that the assistants had done. But from 1980 onwards, Pina wrote the director's scripts herself. Then she asked – and it was very important for her that something like this would continue – that the dancers write down their roles. What we were sometimes very lazy for, that's why we didn't always do it. Some were lazier than the others. So, there were the director's books, and they are still being worked on or created afterward. That was also part of my work. So, when I didn't dance anymore, as an assistant I was in the office a lot. I have written many lists and books.

As we speak about the period between 1999 and 2009, are there any special memories? The work in the 2000s has become a bit different from the 90s in character.

Yes, I came back in 2001 because of Kontakthof. In the beginning I was there exclusively for Kontakthof, then I started with the video archives, then I compileled all these lists. In fact, didin't got to the Lichtburg anymore. I was not part of the creation of pieces. I worked full-time again only two years before Pina died. So, I wasn't always there, rather I observed from outside.

Before we wrap up, is there anything else in your experience, after all these years of work and observations, that we haven't addressed yet?

I came back because of Kontakthof. The reason I started again was that I thought I had to come back to work life, otherwise I'll never be able to do it again. Then Pina Bausch asked if I would help for Kontakthof. Incredible! So faithful of Pina. Unbelievable luck. Then I did that, first with Beatrice Libonati, Jo Ann Endicott and Hans Pop, at some point only with Jo Ann Endicott. It was a learning process. I have worked almost exclusively in a team and it is a learning process to do such leadership work with someone. When I was alone with Jo Ann, it took us some time to find each other, and at some point we formed an almost perfect team. It was clear who had which position and we complemented each other wonderfully and continued with Kontakthof. With Teenagers over 14. Then we continued to work together on pieces like Arien, The Seven Deadly Sins until I retired. I'm retired now, I don't work anymore. But we did such a super nice job, a lot of time spent on preparation. I learned a lot, because these were older pieces that I worked on and there were a lot of things that I didn't know. It was great to see, you can always learn something about these pieces. They haven't yet delivered all their secrets and that fascinates me. Another thing is that Pina Bausch trusted me so much for Kontakthof. Because I am not a light designer – I can't do that – but she asked me to look at what ligh designers were doing. "Is that right or do we want a little less? Or how is it?" And I found it unbelievable that I had the confidence to do it. I think I was more of a witch's apprentice. I had no idea at the beginning. Little by little I learned a little more and that was a great experience.

Two questions. First: A perfect team. What does it look like?

So a perfect team is when everyone respects the other, but probably everyone brings their skills. One can convey many things better, the other can observe better or bring information. The other can do more together. Yes, and we did it together.

This broad repertoire has evolved throughout the years. It described your lives in different times, your searches. They have these secrets in them. Are the pieces still relevant?

There is no piece that I think "This is old-fashioned now, you can't play it anymore." I think there are always moments in pieces where you can dock it completely to today's situation. Probably, because often there is a moment when a catastrophe may have just happened, but nothing presented literally. Another moment when someone cries out for love, another moment when someone is aggravated, and so on. It's so human, and you can find it everywhere. Still today. You don't need to say anything, this is the war of this and that, this is the pandemic of this and that. All our human emotions are tied to these events, you can find them and the reactions. I am very often amazed at how topical this is.

Finally, let's take a look back with the question: What is dance theatre? Your relation to the Tanztheater, in your relationship with Pina Bausch and in relation to your life.

What is Tanztheater? I can't say. There are many different dance theatres. I can only talk about my work with Pina Bausch. I've been working with the Tanztheater for a long time, but as long compared to other dancers. I was only a dancer for nine years and an assistant for only eight years, and not full-time until Pina Bausch died. But it's still the most important part of my life. That shaped my life a lot, framed it. What Pina's work is for me, what I have learned, appreciated, is the integrity, i.e. how you work on something or how you are, how you stand on stage. This search for full integrity. To be there completely and to keep asking "What is it that I do?" That doesn't mean that I do it. I am a human being and, like everyone else, I am always searching and trying. But for me, that's the identity of this work. It's not whether I do it this way or that way when I'm dancing. It's more this search to present and do something. What I would like Pina Bausch's Tanztheater to keep is its identity, to keep this way of search for this keyword that Pina Bausch used particularly often – which we asked again and again at the time: "What, what is this word?", in the beginning, we only German was spoken, but we couldn't speak German and then there was always this word – Sehnsucht (longing). For me, the key word is: longing. So I think that if there is no such thing, then it is not Tanztheater. So, that's the basis: longing.